Being a leader is a challenging role. At the same time, the challenges of a leadership role can offer many advantages to women. Listen to this episode as we talk to three women leaders about motivating their teams to be successful and creating an environment where women belong and are not merely accepted. We also take a closer look at what makes a good and effective leader. How do we lead with heart and vulnerability? And how do we pay it forward to the developing leaders behind us?
This episode's host: Simpson Strong-Tie Vice President of Engineering Annie Kao
Annie Kao, PE serves as Vice President of Engineering for Simpson Strong-Tie and leads a talented and passionate team who innovate, test, and support the most trusted product solutions in the construction industry. Prior to joining Simpson Strong-Tie, she worked as a project engineer on commercial and multi-family projects for a structural engineering consulting firm. She is a registered PE in California and earned her BS from Harvey Mudd College and MS from UC Berkeley.
GUESTS
Cyndie Roche, Vice President of Digital Sales and Architectural Design Services (Paradigm, a division of Builders FirstSource)
As an industry professional with more than 25 years in residential construction, Cyndie Roche’s breadth of experience and leadership capabilities span real estate lending, private land development and homebuilding. Her expertise and passion for technology have enabled her to serve the industry in senior leadership roles focused on ERP and architectural design software and services. She is also an active volunteer in her local HBA, a member of the NAHB Professional Women in Homebuilding, and an in-kind supporter of the St. Jude Dream Home program. Cyndie currently serves as the Vice President of Digital Sales and Architectural Design Services for Paradigm, a dedicated software division of Builders FirstSource.
Kristi Acee, Vice President, National Accounts (Sherwin-Williams)
Kristi Acee leads the National Accounts organization within the Americas Group of Sherwin-Williams. This is a dedicated, nationwide team offering innovative solutions for strategic clients in the new residential, multifamily, commercial real estate, hospitality, healthcare, franchise and government market segments. Her team works to align the resources at Sherwin-Williams with key client stakeholders, often through exclusive partnerships with many of the leading companies within these segments.
Kristi began her career with Sherwin-Williams in 2012 as a National Account Executive, moving on to a Regional Director of National Accounts, Senior Director of Homebuilder Sales, and to her current role as Vice President of National Accounts. Prior to joining the Sherwin-Williams team, Kristi had worked in the paint industry for 10 years.
Kristi has continued her executive education through a variety of resources including the Harvard Business School and the Strategic Account Management Association. Kristi holds a BA from Pepperdine University.
Melissa McGhee, Vice President of National Strategic Sourcing and Supply Chain (KB Home)
Melissa has been in homebuilding for 20 years in several construction operator and executive roles. She joined KB Home four years ago and is based in Phoenix, Arizona. She is responsible for a total construction budget of over $2B across single-family and multifamily homes in twenty divisions. Melissa became the first female vice president of national purchasing in the top 10 homebuilders several years ago. During her free time, you will find her building Legos with her son, working on a home remodel with her husband or gardening.
Welcome to our podcast on Women in Residential Construction, hosted by Simpson Strong-Tie, a leading manufacturer and technology services company of engineered building products in the residential and commercial space.
In this podcast, we take a closer look at the women who make up the residential construction industry. We're going to have an open discussion about how we got here, what challenges us, motivates us, and makes us succeed. In each episode, we will be joined by three guests to get their perspective on what it's like to be in this field. We will talk about how women can affect change and create an environment where other women want to be a part of.
Annie Kao
Hi, I'm Annie Kao, and I'm the Vice President of Engineering with Simpson Strong-Tie. In this episode, I'm going to get a chance to talk to three amazing leaders within the construction industry and find out how they got here. So, I've got some wonderful guests with me today. Let's go ahead and meet them now.
Kristi Acee
Hi, Annie. Thanks for having us. My name is Kristi Acee, and I'm the Vice President of National Accounts for Sherwin -Williams. I got pulled into this industry from a family friend, a large commercial contractor in California. I've been here for about 23 years in the industry, and I just really fell in love with the people and the industry. But if anybody had told me right out of college that I would be passionate about paint, I told them they were crazy, but I am passionate about paint.
Melissa McGhee
Yeah, hi, Annie. Thanks for having me, guys. This is so fun. I appreciate the invite. My name is Melissa McGhee. I'm the Vice President of Strategic Sourcing and Supply Chain at KB Home. KB Home is a first -time home builder. We are nationwide. We build about 12 ,000 houses roughly a year. I joined the industry also, just similar to Kristi and Cyndie, about 20 years ago. I really wasn't seeking out the construction industry. There was an agency that was looking for some younger talent, and they showed me that the construction industry was going to take off in the next couple years. They showed me some graphs, and they convinced me. But then Pulte Group had made me an offer that when I was much younger was something I just couldn't refuse, but I met some people like Kristi said that were just dynamic and really just very different than the industry I was in. And I left the banking industry and have been in construction ever since.
Cyndie Roche
It is absolutely wonderful to join you guys. My name is Cyndie Roche. I am the vice president with Builders First Source. I currently work within their digital transformation project, joined them a couple years ago. And I have been in and around construction for the better part of 20 years, a little longer, been a homebuilder myself and worked in many facets with this inexplicable love of homebuilding and all the things that are related to construction. So, it is a pleasure to be here and thanks for having me.
Annie Kao
Yeah, thanks everyone. I would say it is pretty rare thing to be in a group of vice presidents where everyone else is also a woman. So our theme today being a woman in leadership and really wanting to pick everyone's brain of how we can just see more women at different levels of leadership within the companies. And I know when we had talked a little bit before this that it really came across to me that it was really important for this group to participate in this podcast. Really when it wasn't convenient for anyone's schedule and so had kind of wanted to ask maybe I can start with Melissa here. Like why was it important to you to participate in a podcast around women in leadership?
Melissa McGhee
I think podcasts are so popular, right? I know I lean more towards the crime and murder ones. So when you guys, when Simpson said they're going to be putting together some sort of podcast, I just think it's such a powerful tool to get stories of that inspire people out there or draw some creativity to it. KB has been a partner with Simpson Strong-Tie for well over also I think 20, 25 years. I think I've lost count at this point. Any kind of program or project that you guys are working on when Tina Haro told us about this, this was something I absolutely wanted to commit my time to. So, I'm glad to be here, absolutely.
Annie Kao
Thanks so much, Melissa. Cyndie, was there something important to you about being able to talk about women in leadership?
Cyndie Roche
It's a passion to be able to look around and find folks, as you mentioned at the beginning, that are like ourselves. It's not easy to get to this level of management and leadership in a very dominated industry that you don't see a lot of ourselves out there and therefore the cultures are often focused on the different types of folks that dominate the space. For me, hearing voices that are like mine could have inspired me to really have taken a different path in my career earlier and saw a different level of engagement within the construction industry and maybe challenged myself to do more versus really just kind of taking what was made available.
Kristi Acee
You know, I love seeing more women come into this industry and just if this is opening a conversation for more to come to this industry, that would be wonderful. I've had so many wonderful male role models in my career that I've just had some great experiences. I would love to be that female role model and start that conversation for the next generation.
Annie Kao
I love what you're saying there, Kristi, and you're actually bringing me to my next question is. Why do we feel like it's important to have these female voices? And really, I think in my mind, just this diversity of voices and perspectives in company leadership. How have you seen that maybe benefit your company and maybe your own personal journey? And we'll throw this over to Cyndie to start.
Cyndie Roche
Thank you, Annie. It's interesting that the world dominated your career path by apprenticeships early at the turn of the century and you learned by emulating. And it's such a basic nature to our psychology to see other people, see what they do that is successful, what is not successful and figure out how to walk that path yourself. When we do not have those leaders that we can look to and say, ooh, I love the way she handled that very challenging situation but was true to who she is. We're missing out on those types of views. So for me this is this is an opportunity, not only for myself to be able to have a voice and say what I've been through and maybe what someone else can learn from. But also, this is a pretty incredible group of women to hear their voices as this is going on and take that back and put it in my toolbar.
Kristi Acee
I love that Cindy. I had a leader early on in my career when I lacked confidence. And sometimes I still lack confidence in certain areas. And I loved he said to me once, he said, you know, you earned the seat at the table. You know, what are you going to do with it? And I it's always been the voice in my head of, I did earn the seat at the table. And how can I pass that forward? And I love being able to have hearing other women talk and, and how they handle situations and what I can do to maybe take that same approach or, you know, tweak it to make it my own. And by not having those women in leadership, we don't always have that to emulate. So it's, it's nice to have that.
Melissa McGhee
I agree with everything that Kristi and Cindy are saying, because I go back to who the first women I saw were, and when you say emulate, right, Cindy, I think of, yep, I remember, you know, where they position their hands, right? You're just studying everything that they're doing and saying, and all of it comes back to just confidence, right? That they seem like they're, you know, they belong there, right? They've gained the credibility. What I love about having diverse, even on my own team, even in the bigger group of team, is I think that you're forced to be more creative, right? When women tend to be more into the detail and the, you know, the nonverbals and maybe the, you know, the project management side, I think is a lot where our type of gender leads to, then you kind of mix that with different age groups. And that's to me a very critical thing. I would say even much more than gender is having different age groups in a situation where you take from everybody's background, right? And then I think as a whole, what's produced and in home building, right? Who's really the customer in my mind? Women are usually the ones that are saying, "Hey, I'm not looking for a new house." And that's usually the way for the mother or the aunt, right? So I think you wind up with a really great product at the end when you have it first group, honestly, is my opinion.
Annie Kao
I love that. I feel like I picked up on two things. One, like you can't be what you don't see or what you don't see an example of. I know at Simpson, our recently retired CEO, Karen, was someone I looked up to for so many years, because she started out actually in engineering. She ran one of our branches, then she ran our entire company. And I would feel a little bit stalker or something that you similar. I would just kind of be watching and be like, "Okay, how does she do those things? And how does she handle that situation?" And it was, you know, for me a masterclass on how to just be able to be true to yourself, but also be really successful in, you know, kind of this male dominated environment that if I hadn't had that, I don't know how successful I would have been or maybe like you, Cindy, maybe would have just taken me longer, you know, to get where I was trying to go.
Cyndie Roche
One thing that you said, Annie, that comes to mind is the need to be perfect. Because we are women in a room full of men, there's not the tolerance to have or doesn't always feel maybe like there's the tolerance to have made a mistake or to not have thought through something or whatever we did because we're already singled out in a different way that there's this overwhelming sense of pressure to just never do anything wrong. So being able to see the way other women handle that or just be human is really powerful.
Kristi Acee
It almost gives you permission to take more chances too when you know that it's okay. If I do fall, I'll get back up. And that's a good thing.
Annie Kao
Yeah I love that and I just I love what you're saying about this pressure to be perfect because I mean we kind of feel it here but actually there's some really interesting research too just about how women view themselves even when there is an opening for a leadership role and we had talked about kind of a statistic where men tend to apply for a job when they meet some of the qualifications but women tend to wait until they meet 100 % of the qualifications before they apply particularly for managerial or just you know increasing responsibility roles and it just seems like we're really doing ourselves a disservice by not even putting our names in the hat you know for the to be considered for these roles. How do you all think that we can help women overcome that?
Kristi Acee
I think by having the conversation we don't self -promote very well and to have the conversation of these are my these are my concerns why I'm not you know posting for a position or looking for this promotion and really kind of fine -tuning it with other women I think that we also need to sometimes as women we try to just be nice and not help someone go to the next level but you sometimes you have to say the hard things too and say like hey you really need to work on this that's going to help each other be able to get to that next level and we need to be willing to have those conversations.
Melissa McGhee
I think for me it's also I don't know women in the women I've mentored before it's a common theme of nobody's tapping me on the shoulder telling them that I'm the next person in that role but I think it's getting out in inspiring women to recognize nobody nobody's going to chart that path for you I think so I've said to people so many times nobody can read your mind you're even interested you've got to take that next step and put your name in the hat and say I I might not meet all of them qualifications but I'm a quick learner and I'm humble enough to ask and point out what I don't know and I know who I should be asking to get that answer but I think Chrissy said the perfect thing is women don't self -promote. And I remember a lot of my male mentors that I've had over the years, that's really what you would start to see them doing. I remember beginning several meetings where I know that that person doesn't know everything about that thing they're talking about. And half of it seems like they made it up. And there's a sense of, "Oh, is this how this goes?" Where you fake it till you make it kind of mentality. And it's just, you might not be the expert in all things, nobody expects that. But I think it's sharing, like Kristi said. Sharing, when I first got into this role, there was so much I had to learn so quickly. But I think that it has to be a drive within you, right? As you have to be driven to, "I'm going to be the best at this. I might not be right today, but I know I can." And have that confidence of, "I'm going to put myself out there and be vulnerable." And here I am. And hopefully I'm the best person for the role. And then my last thought, sorry, my last thought would be networking constantly. I think you need to be well seen and have a fantastic reputation, which means you have to be a team player at the end of the day, willing to work on a project that might take you until long hours. And willing to help out any kind of peer or even any kind of leadership. I think there's a lot there of just not only self-promoting, but you've got to put yourself out there and be seen. And that takes some sacrifice sometimes.
Kristi Acee
Melissa, that's so true. Also, humility to ask for help. I think along the way and be able to say, "Hey, I need help. Help me through the situation." And I think that sometimes we don't want to, or we're scared to. What are going to be the ramifications of asking for help when it's never going to be a bad thing?
Annie Kao
I feel like there were two things that I really picked up on. One is having the confidence, but two, also having the vulnerability. And it seems like those are counterintuitive, but they kind of play into each other in a way where you're confident enough to say that you're right for it, but vulnerable enough to say, but I need a little bit of help to get there as well. And that's a tough balance to strike, I think, for some folks who are used to being top of the class, A plus top performance marks in order to even feel like they could be qualified for the next role. I was gonna check in with you, Cindy, to see if you had anything on that topic as well.
Cyndie Roche
Very rarely do I not have words to share, so I'll keep you brief. You have to have an environment that supports you being vulnerable to find the courage or to live with the ramifications of being vulnerable. And the whole reason we're talking today, and the whole reason we've done this is because not all women are as fortunate as we have been to find paths that have gotten us to this level. 'Cause I think we can all say we've had some male champions that have helped us get here. And if you're lucky, as you've talked about, any female champions that have gotten here, but we're here because there's not enough. And that's where I go, okay, how do we help women that are looking and have the capabilities to be phenomenal leaders, find a path of being that leader and moving their company forward, but being very true and genuine to who they are as a female, which is very different and distinct from the male -dominated environment they could be in. So I'm one thankful that we get the opportunity to do this, and two, I look forward to hearing the stories of women that hear this podcast and what they were able to do with the information.
Annie Kao
Yeah, I totally agree with you, Cindy, about you have to have those things, but you also have to have the right environment, 'cause otherwise there's a lot that could be possible but that doesn't happen I'm gonna stray from the script a little bit, but you're just making me think if you if you feel like you have those things you have the drive you have the confidence and you also have the vulnerability to ask for help But it's not the right environment, you know to what Melissa was saying earlier about there are women who are Waiting to get a tap on the shoulder to say hey by the way, this is your time how can women and just people who are looking to move forward in their careers actually be more in control of that destiny and feel like they have the ability to ask for something that they want or make a change that would really Make sense for them.
Kristi Acee
You know, one of the things we have at Sherwin -Williams is our resource groups and their grassroots groups that we have at What we call our district level and it's really peer groups And I think it's where a lot of this these conversations start to happen Where people are balancing ideas off, you know, where they are in their career. What are their next steps? I feel like Sherwin -Williams does a really good job of telling you, you know This is the path that you could take in your career And so people are asking along the way, you know, how do I get to that next step and they're asking their peers They're asking there, you know, they're managers and they're really kind of Figuring that out that if they have the drive, you know, we we've kind of had a saying that We're never gonna hide good talent, but they need to make their selves themselves known. And so I think that's one of the things that has really helped us in our company.
Annie Kao
I had met with a group of college juniors and seniors at Simpson we host a scholarship event and one of the things I had told them was I feel like for part of my career I was I was waiting for permission To do certain things like waiting for permission to take more responsibility waiting for permission to take the lead on this and At some point I just realized that like oh other people aren't waiting for permission Like the guys aren't waiting for permission like why do I feel like I need to I need to kind of step outside my comfort zone, actually look at how they're modeling some of the behaviors and adopt that to kind of suit how I want to approach the situation. And that leads me into my next question about, you know, do women lead differently than men? Kind of my own personal experience of kind of being a little bit hesitant to ask for permission. Do you feel like your style and approach has been different than your male counterparts?
Melissa McGhee
I think absolutely. I think I considered almost a superpower that women have, right, to pick up on nonverbal. They are just naturally different, right? I think that's the great thing about having a mom and a dad, right? When you're a child, you have very different styles that you learn from as you grow up. I think having a female leader or a female boss and being that female leader is, you pick up on what your team needs, right? I think you focus, got a lot more active listening that you might actually hear what they're trying to say without them really saying it, don't get me wrong. I have, I've had, it's not, I don't think this is just a female thing, right? Where they pick up on nonverbal. But I think that there's more of an inherent empath in a lot more female leaders where they will pick up on that, I've got an employee that looks like they're sitting in their cubicle and they're not engaging. I got to do a little bit more of a check -in with them and see if there's something I can do to maybe pick up or take something off their shoulders or just engage with them and let them know that I do see, right, that there's maybe something going on that I think that's just the benefit that we have with having women in the workplace and it's the ability to identify somebody's skills on a team as well before they even have that skill, right? Seeing something in somebody, and it's, I've often said, right, there's like a diamond and a rock. I have somebody on my team right now today. I love her. I took her from another builder because I love her so much. And over the years, she's been a mentee of mine. I've seen it, right? right? It was not, she wasn't sparkly, but I knew there was something there. It was just a little sparkle in her eye where I go, you're gonna, you can be something. And if you trust me, right? If you allow me to even give you this kind of feedback, I want to help you get to where I know you can. I wanna be, I always say I'm your biggest fan, right? I'm in your crowd. How can I help get you to what I think you can do before you even know you can do it?
Annie Kao
I think just thinking that there are a lot of different ways to be a leader. And I know in my experience, I felt like, "Okay, I have to act that way or be that way "or socialize in a certain way in order to be a part "of that level in the organization." And increasingly, as I've seen more women in just different styles and the diversity that we were talking about earlier, it feels like there is more of an opportunity to kind of bring your true self and encourage others to bring your true self to their jobs and to these leadership roles. This power of representation that we were talking about earlier when it comes to leadership roles and being able to see different kinds of leaders and women leaders. And I know what drove me to Simpson again was some really strong women leaders that I had seen. And the importance of mentorship and reaching out into what you were saying earlier, Melissa, about really identifying talent and doing what you can to bring them up. I wanted to ask, how do you feel that you're able to support other aspiring women leaders over the course of your career? Is there something that you're doing or maybe something your company is doing to really encourage that next generation of leaders?
Cyndie Roche
Builders First Sources is doing, they have a concerted effort right now that is really focused on the female representation within the organization and how to create paths for them Not only in leadership, but just for career pathing within the the organization, which is nice to see The piece of it that I found really encouraging is that we might all be women, but we're all very different and being different You know, of course, it's you know We're there's only a few of us or a handful of us in some of these calls But we're not all the same either and that level of diversity is also Encouraged and appreciated So that I'm I'm excited to not only be participating in but offering whatever support that I can for the younger generation Something that Melissa said earlier resonated with me on this topic And it's that you know, when it somebody says Cindy, what are you really good at and I think what I'm really good at is taking chaotic situations and finding greatness in people and aligning that greatness towards the goal of the team and Really wanting better for them than I want for myself That can be my biggest Achilles heel. It can be my biggest greatness as a leader but it's who I am which is very different than some of the females I've seen growing the corporate ladder which became more dominant or assumed more of a masculine role in their trajectory. So that's a long -winded way to say that I've Builders first source took this journey with their diversity in a group that they've created And it's been fun to be a part of some of the inaugural meetings and getting started with it I look forward to the future for sure.
Melissa McGhee
Your question It definitely is a good one because if that's you know, I always want to make sure I'm doing more right as my own Responsibility is how do you get younger women into more roles? I think is, again, you have to stop and make it a priority as somebody that's maybe further along in their journey. And I do love that. But again, we get so consumed into our own projects and everybody's pulling at us. It's almost, you have to make a concerted effort to stop and recognize somebody and want to fill their cup and add to them and put a pep in their step to say, you did a really great job on that project and you should really be the one that takes the lead on that. And one other thing I often say to anybody, this is not gender related, but is, and it's back to your first point that you said, Andy, which is vulnerability, and I think is going out and actually saying, will you be my mentor? I think it's one of the hardest things, right? Because we're all, nobody likes rejection, right? That doesn't feel good. But I always try, I still do this to this day, as I always say to myself, how would I react if somebody asked me this question? And of all the people that have asked me to be their mentor, I feel so honored, right? I feel so, you want me, right? You choose me. So I often say, get out of your own head, go walk up to the person, rehearse it in the bathroom, right? But then walk up to them and say, would you consider being my mentor? And I bet you every single time somebody's going to say yes. And then you've got to put your energy into that, right? You've got to schedule your meetings, you got to reoccur to them if they give you homework, make sure you follow up on your homework. I think that's my biggest, like, how do we, how do I train health is I push really hard on that mentorship side of things. And KB is amazing at that. It's a very open kind of, I can talk to anybody in any department, right, that I want. And they're very welcoming and committing time to that, right? That's not, it's not on your personal time that you go talk to your mentor, right? That's company time because they truly believe in that.
Kristi Acee
Melissa, I know that at KB you guys are so open and friendly to talk about that with other people. We see that at Sherwin -Williams, too. I mean, we've got the career path in continuous learning, but mentors are really, that's something that I really enjoy. I love talking to our store managers. Someone will call me and say, "Hey, can you talk to this person who's just got in our manager training program?" I love walking through the next stages in their career, like practicing interviews and what they're going to put their business plan together and just having those conversations and breaking down those walls to their things that they'll say to a mentor that they won't say to their boss. There are things that hold them back in their career that they're not saying, but when they have that trust with the mentor, it really helps them prepare for that next step when it might have been holding them back.
Annie Kao
I'm just getting such a strong sense of like, this commitment to women lifting other women and putting in that time and energy and really giving back, which is incredible, that that's the kind of just responsibility that we feel that we have. I'm trying to remember, I think it was Melissa who said it earlier, just around making sure that we're doing better, some of you said it earlier. We want the next generation to not have to have the same struggle. They should have different ones. They should be able to move it forward and be able to not have the same exact struggles and be in the same spot, the stagnant spot to see growth both in the industry and who's rising up through the ranks as a part of that. It sounds like it's also just an incredible time commitment to be able to say yes to all of those possible mentees, spend time on the program, probably be able to look for your mentors themselves. And so it's a little bit of a segue to me to our next topic, which is just talking about balance. So talking about women in leadership, and there's a lot of research that shows that women traditionally just carry the lion's share of the mental load when it comes to home life, that family life, you know, kids, just other obligations that you have. Also wanting to be really strong performers that work and wanting to find whatever work life balance really means. We'd really love to hear all of your thoughts on what that looks like maybe for you or advice that you give to other people around achieving this elusive work life balance.
Kristi Acee
Balance is so hard. I think one of the things that I learned pretty early on was I needed to be present in wherever I was. If I was at home with my family, I needed to be present. And when I was at work, I needed to be, you know, they're living there in the moment, you know, having that support system and asking for help when I needed help. That was something that I did. I had great support in my husband. We did a lot of handing off of children, but the careers we have, there's a sacrifice. I mean, there are things that we missed. I missed baseball games. I missed different practices and, you know, events that the kids were in. But I knew that when I was there, I was going to be present. And that was the thing that I really wanted to be able to do for them.
Melissa McGhee
Yeah, Kristi, I think you said it perfectly, right? I think it's, you never feel balanced. You feel like you're giving up on something, right? Your time is only so many hours in a day and you are sacrificing something. I often say to get into higher ranks where you've got to be thinking about everything at work, right? You're meeting a team, the time commitment that goes into that now sacrificed to Kristi's point. I've missed my son's graduation, right? I've missed award ceremonies. You have to just be okay with that. You have to accept and not let that guilt just fester, right? In your soft parts of your heart. And know that this is what you want. Ultimately, at the end of the day is you can be a mom and a wife and a daughter and a sister, and you're going to fit that in. But at the end of the day, you wanted this. And you can always pull the record, right? We all have the option of walking away. But I think we're all committed to it because we love it. I know I do. I love what I do. I love my job. I love KB. I love construction. And I love my kids and my family all the same too. And I just have to be okay with they don't all get all of me all the time. And then Christie says it beautifully, which is when I am there, they have all of me, right? Even though it's hard, right? Because in the back of your mind, you're thinking about what's that PowerPoint say, right? Or I got to talk to this one person about this before that happens. But you've got to be able to compartmentalize. And that's really it. It's just being able to, I always, I think of, you know, like a desktop on a screen where I've got icons all over it. I often think of, okay, I'm going to shut down that program, right? I'm going to shut down work. I'm going to open up, double click on the, okay, I got to do something for my son's school, right? He's got a project coming on. Let me focus on that. And let me not have too many icons open at the same time. Because to your point now, everything's out of balance. And, you know, then your, your health is something you sacrifice. But that's how I kind of charted in my own brain is which icon on my desktop do I have open right now and try and be just as Kristi said, very present for that.
Cyndie Roche
I'm going to take this say, I'm going to go more vulnerable route on this because this is one I am not very good at. And I will say without any hesitancy that my three children would agree with that statement that I'm probably not the best at work life balance. I attribute much of my success to being a 24 /7 kind of person. I fluidly work, I fluidly am a mom, I'm a single mom. And so I have tried to do my best to always prioritize sometimes not a minute of what needs to be done for who, when, and there's no doubt that my bosses or my peers or my work environment often blends. But I want to give you a little bit of a glimmer of hope and for anybody that went through COVID like I'm sure we did where you were sitting at home with your kids at home too because they were home from school. I have a daughter that's a sophomore in college this year but back in COVID she was a senior in high school. And it was the end of her junior year and then her senior year. And it was about six months in and she was looking at colleges and universities and she came to me and she's like, "Mom, I want to be you." And I had that same like instant blood of emotion and I was like, "What?" And she said, "I've never seen you at work." And now I sit as close to your office door as I can sit so that I can hear the way you talk to people because now I know who you are and I want to be you. How do I go to school to be you? And I went, well, one, hold on a second. I'm going to need a box clear next. I'm going to need a recording because you're never going to admit this again. But that moment for me was I'm teaching her how to express care, concern, and I will even go so far as to say love for the people that I manage, lead or work with because they're real humans with real real families that need to feel good about who they are. And let's face it, this podcast is about being a leader, and we know every day the people that work for us, we determine sometimes their emotional health. So at least we can give them a good day and say, "You know what, today you screwed up. I'm going to look you straight in the eye on this call and tell you this was not the right decision, but I'm going to put my face in front of this with you. We're going to find a path to success, and we're not going to have to deal with this one again because we got this one. We made this mistake. We'll make more mistakes, but they'll be different." And she heard me, and she heard the way I addressed those challenges by loving and caring for human beings that, you know, these very large corporate public companies have entrusted me to care about. So, no, I don't balance it well, but I at least I had that success story.
Annie Kao
I was going to tell you, I need a Kleenex for that story. That was so beautiful.
Melissa McGhee
I have to ask, is that something, I mean, you tell this story right in those years ago, and I think it's such a beautiful story. Do you stop and actually see, this is what I hear, right, is that she is so proud of you, right? That's what I hear. Not only do you think that you're not, you're not covering enough, you're spreading so thin, but I am so excited that your daughter recognized that, right? All your hard work, all the things you have sacrificed, I think it's so beautiful for her to say, "That is something I want to be." And she, like, she's almost giving permission to be who you have to be. And to fuel you like that is, just like Annie said, I welled up as well.
Cyndie Roche
Well, I will just say, it still fuels my day when my tank is empty, when I think about that story, because I am not the perfect fit for every boss, for every project, for every situation, and it's taken me a long time to say, "Okay, maybe that wasn't a great fit for me, and it's okay for me to select out that doesn't mean failure, because I'm going to every day try to bring the best I can to those situations." And that's just part of being female, which I hope all the females listening to this go, okay, I can be me too, and that's okay. –
Kristi Acee
She also gave you permission, she's sharing you with others. So when you have that guilt of you’re spread too thin, you were given permission to share yourself with others, which is a great gift. –
Annie Kao
I'm like, how do I get my daughter to say that about me and the future? When I was, I'm still like, still basking in your stories and it's such a, I'm in the same boat. I feel that I love to talk about work -life balance, but I don't ever feel like it's a 50 /50 at any given point. And I always feel like it's a sliding scale. There's gonna be times, you know, phases where, you know, work really is the thing that I'm focused on, and I do have to make some sacrifices as to how I can spend my time and who I'm gonna be able to, what family things I'm gonna be able to go to, but then also the flip side. I know that I've also made decisions in my career with my family in mind, where I decided not to pursue something or not take the lead on a project, because I was like, well, this is actually really, I need to be focusing on my family right now, and kind of making that active decision of when is the right time, right, for that scale to go on one side or the other, and making sure that it's the right choice for me, and that I am not doing something that is like irreplaceable, right? Like not missing something that, when I look back on, you know, in time is something that I was like, oh, that was the wrong decision. Or even if you do, you think like, okay, there'll still be, you know, more opportunities, you know, to make decisions and try to bring it back into balance if for some time that you weren't.
Melissa McGhee
I remember a speech I heard years ago, I just wanna share what I take away from that, and trying to get back to that balance, right? I think we all say we don't always feel balanced, right? One speech I heard about like the family versus work, and she was like a, I think she was like a doctor to a president years and years ago, and she was speaking and somebody got up at the end of her speech, right, Q &A session and asked her what's her greatest regret and I think all of us take away certain things from conferences and stuff like this and she got out without hesitation, right? And she was well into her 60s, maybe even early 70s and she said she was at the top, right? The biggest doctor you could be, doctor to the president and she goes the biggest and she talked the whole thing about was her whole career. She was my biggest regret was that I didn't spend enough time with my family and I lived with that kind of reset button, if you will, right? When I feel like work is just consuming my every cell in my body, I go listen to that female that was years and years ahead of you and she lives with that regret to this day, right? And that I try and how do you get back to balance? That's my kind of reset phrase is her biggest regret was not enough time with her family and I got to take that and make sure that I'm resetting right and balancing what is really truly always important which is family.
Annie Kao
I just want to say to you that one of the things in my career that really helped was asking at work for what I needed to feel more in balance. So when I was a new mom and having kids and trying to balance going back to work with, you know, still wanting to be able to have some flexibility for the baby and being able to work out a schedule and again, I don't think that would have happened unless I asked for it like, oh, could I have like flexible hours or could I do some of my work at this time instead or could I and just asking some questions that, you know, if other people weren't asking them, I'm not sure how there would be any change, any kind of policy that goes around. And I know back when I was having kids, we didn't have kind of a formal company, maternity or paternity policy. And now we do as of about five or six years ago, and I was just so happy for those parents then who were going to be able to take advantage of benefits that have come around as we've realized what our employees need in order to be able to bring their full selves if they're not worrying about other things in their life, so they can be the best that they can be at work and they can be the best that they can be at home. So that's been really cool to see how companies are also evolving to try to help people be more balanced as impossible as the perfect work -life balance is, but flooding that scale back to something more reasonable.
Cyndie Roche
This, I think I mentioned in my intro, I joined Builders First Source a couple of years ago. So I'm later in my career, I'm in my fifties now. I've spent a lot of time earning my seat at the table. Thank you very much for staying for that comment earlier. But one of the things that I negotiated was that I can't travel on Mondays and Tuesdays 'cause those are the two days a week that I share custody with my son. He's with his dad on Wednesday, Thursdays, and I will never forget that we had gone through a whole negotiation and I said, "I need you to know this is my terms." And the answer I got back from Builders First Source and EVP of this organization was, "You are our first choice for this position." And I was blown away. Now that says a couple of things. One, I'm at later stage of my career and I could say those words. Not all of us have felt like in our career, we have the ability to say that. But at the same time, the leadership of BFS met me where I needed them to meet me so that I could do this job well. And then as a result, take it a year later, I'm hiring a beautiful, young, bright, just spitfire at a lady out of Austin, young woman that just at the beginning of her career in construction. And the day we're going to offer her the job, she calls me in tears to tell me that she's pregnant. And she was so devastated because she was absolutely sure we were going to pass. And because she knew just from talking to everybody that that's where we were going was to make her an offer, but she didn't want to accept the offer and then feel like she had slighted us and not told us. And to be able to give her the confidence and saying, it's going to be great. You're going to love getting started. And when it's time for you to go out, I will personally make sure that we're covering you for those for that time that you need to take off. Do not worry your head one minute further. And the relief she has expressed to me over the years that she's been with me now in this in this company, because I was able to give her what the company gave me.
Kristi Acee
Don't you think that, one, you probably feel like you would run through a wall for the people that gave you that opportunity. And then you were able to turn around and give that opportunity to somewhere else. And the value that brings to a team and the environment of the team, knowing that you look at them as a person and what they need in their family and their personal life to make them the best employee that comes to the table each and every day. I mean, I just think it's so invaluable to be able to pass that forward and be able to ask for it. I mean, you asking for Annie, asking for the things that you needed for your maternity leave. I mean, we have to ask for them. But then to be given that gift, to be able to have that, it's just really, I felt very strongly about it.
Melissa McGhee
Cyndie, I have to comment because you just unlocked a memory, a not so good one. When I was first pregnant, I had a male boss. And that fear of saying it out loud because I was in a newer role, up and coming, really wasn't trying to get, you know, pregnant. So it was a little bit of a, I'm in this job. I've been there for maybe three, six months. And I had delivered that news. And I wish Cyndie that you were my boss at that time because that would have been a very different story. But I was met with this male boss and you could see the disappointment in his face. He said, Well, I guess we'll put you on different projects until you can return. And I felt like that was such a, I, you know, I have to choose my job or I have to choose being a mom. And he put me in such a position that I think when you're put in a negative situation, that you grow from that too, it doesn't feel good in the moment, right? Because you're stressed and the pressure is on you. But I distinctly remember being, this is how males react, right? When females get pregnant in this industry is it's a bad thing. And you have to hide it. And for now all through my pregnancy, right? And then into my, and I did not have a good delivery. I had some, some complications. And I was almost terminated because of it, because I wasn't able to return to work in two weeks. It was one of those you're about to lose your baby situations. So you don't eat, you're in the hospital. And he was putting me on a track to be let go. Thank you for the grace of God. I was able to overcome that and my son is great to this day. But Cindy, you just unlocked like a, I know, I know we're not in a therapy session, we're talking about women in leadership. But what you gave to that female, I just have to tell you personally that story just resonates with me because I had, I feel like the polar opposite where I was nearly fired for it. And although I say it's made me a better person, because just like you say, if somebody came to me with that, that shouldn't be a, I can't do my job, right? That's not a handicap. That's a, we're gonna support you where you are in your life. And I hope you give back to somebody else in the future or give back to the team when you're able and ready. So I just had to tell you how much your story just personally touched my soul. 'Cause that was something, apparently I was suppressing for quite a while.
Cyndie Roche
I think as women in leadership, we're all vice presidents, we all have those horrible stories we could share of the situation and Melissa, by no means, do I wanna diminish what you just shared? Because I have not had that happen, but my gosh, can I can imagine how that must feel? It's being a boss or being a leader, let's not say boss, let's say leader, is core to who I am. I don't need to be in charge. I have no problem being a team player, but for me to not work, I think my kids would dislike me. They would not like me and they would want me to get out of the house. I love to work and I love construction. So I share that because when you look at someone, like a boss and Melissa that you had that says, "Oh, okay, well now we're gonna have to diminish your role "here because you're splitting your attention." You know, it goes back to what I think women are great at and that's it really understanding the core of what the people around them need in order to be great. And everybody has a life cycle. Everybody goes through ups and downs and has journeys. And I have been through having, I'm sure you as you have men that have worked for us that got divorced and all of a sudden their focus is now shifted. They aren't the same rock solid employee they were. We understand that because we have it too, whether it is a life challenge, a death in the family, a marriage, an adoption, whatever the little life is, we see that human side of our employees and we try to manage them through the team goal through so that everybody can be successful and they come out as good, if not better than they would have been in the beginning. And that's why more companies do need people like us in those leadership positions to help shape those teams.
Annie Kao
Melissa, your story reminded me, I was thinking I didn't have a similar experience, but I did have kind of these little, these kind of smaller events that happened where, you know, there was a trip or an event. It was like, oh, well, you know, Annie probably won't be interested because I know she's got young kids at home, right? Or, oh, you know, I don't know if she'll be able to spend the amount of time and effort and focus on this because I think she has a lot of other things going on. But I think in my instance, having other advocates and mentors kind of in that same space who, you know, who were like, well, why are we assuming that, right? Why do we think that that's something that is just specific to somebody who's a young mom as opposed to someone who's a young dad or has, you know, other obligations and being able to just really challenge, you know, someone's assumption of, you know, what, how a situation should be handled and just assume that, oh, okay, well, someone's pregnant. Obviously, they're not gonna be a high performer anymore, that that's, you know, just really outdated thinking and just assuming that, assuming things that you just don't know about somebody just because of that particular phase, you know, of their life. I do want to hug you, Melissa.
Melissa McGhee
I just want to, I wasn't, I was nowhere in mind to share that story.
Kristi Acee
but it was perfect timing.
Annie Kao
Yeah. And I know that sometimes I'll get the comment from people of like, oh, you, you look, you have it all together. It's all perfect, right? Like you've got this great position in your company. You have this beautiful family and kids and, you know, you're so successful. Like everything must have just gone so, so straightforward for you, you know, for you to get there. And I'm always like, mm -mm. There's no straight line, right? From start to finish. There is a lot of challenges that you have to go through in order to get there. And so with that, I actually have kind of our last wrap up question, which is really a catch -all. It's such a great conversation today. So to kind of sum it all up, I wanted to ask the question, what would you say is the best piece of advice that you've received about, you know, being a successful leader?
Kristi Acee
Be authentic as I'm trying to emulate and be more like the leaders that inspire me, but it's also really important to be myself. People see through that and it resonates with them.
Cyndie Roche
The instant you asked that question, Annie, what came to my mind was something my dad said to me. My father was in the steel manufacturing industry and my grandpa used to build apartment buildings that, you know, after the Second World War. So I guess I come to this construction stuff a little honestly and ran a plumbing company. But I remember I was eight years old and my dad said to me, he took me to work that day. And he said, Cindy, I should tell you, we got there at like 6 .45 in the morning. And my dad was the Senior Vice President of Operations for this steel manufacturing company. And he certainly didn't need to be at the plant, but we were there. I don't know why I was with him, but it was super early. And the workers were just kind of coming in and he said, you don't ever ask something of your team that you're not willing to do yourself. And it's not your job to do it, but you got to be willing to do it. And as an executive, the higher you go up in the ranks, the less detail most executives know, know, but I've never forgotten that. And so when I think of the times that somebody's asked me about what's important to me being a leader, it really is to be able or capable or interested enough in what each of the employees that work for me do so that I can do it myself, or at least know that if I expected of them that I'm willing to go swing that hammer with them, don't ask me to swing your hammer. I'm really bad at it, but that sticks with me. It just didn't come from a woman. It came from somebody that I truly respected as a leader of the organization I saw him run.
Melissa McGhee
Mine goes to, and I actually even wrote it down years ago, is from this gentleman, and he said it this way to me, "The best way to kill something is to let it starve." He goes on to say, "No response, no action, no energy, no altercation, don't feed it." And he goes, "That's really, really the true power lies." And what I draw from that is there's so much politics that you have to go through and you said it, right? There's no straight line because a lot of it is, "Oh, I'm going to run into this person." But I think it's so easy to feed into negativity with other women in the workplace, other peers in the workplace, or feed into this email has gotten me just so upset, and I want to respond is don't feed it, right? Or I'm going to really suck at something I'm doing, and I don't know if I can do it or pull it off or I'm good enough, don't feed, don't give that energy, don't feed it, right? Let it starve. Don't invest your energy in it. And to me, that was a piece of advice that I go back to, it's just you got to kill it. Let it starve. Don't get it. Don't get into it. Don't feed it. And that's really where the power is, is turn it off and walk away. And that's what I try and say to people is you get in your own way. Right? You can kind of apply that to so many different versions of anything, but to me, that's my best advice.
Cyndie Roche
I'm stealing that. That's brilliant.
Melissa McGhee
Good. Good.
Annie Kao
Me too. I was going to add the best piece of advice that I got was actually in conversations I had with the three of you, just kind of prepping for it. And I'm trying to remember it. Maybe I think it came from you, Kristi, around create your own personal board of directors. Yes. Yes. I'm going to say the best piece of advice I've received recently was from Kristi and she was just saying how, you know, and you're trying to think about your career and what you do. Like have this advisory board, have this board of directors that is, you know, giving you really good perspective and advice, you know, both professionally, personally, you know, form this kind of fortress around yourself on how you can, you know, really maximize what you're doing and where you're trying to go. And so I had really, really loved that. I'm glad it'll be useful. It has been an amazing experience talking with the three of you today. I feel like we've, we went through the whole emotional roller coaster. I feel like there's so much that I'm walking away from this conversation that I know I want to turn around and apply, you know, to my own life and career and make sure that I'm working with the folks at my company that we're doing all the best things that we can to support our employees, particularly the help women just be a louder voice, you know, within our organization. Because I think there's so much potential there for growth. I just wanted to thank the three of you for your time of which I know we have very little of to spare to, to put towards this podcast and just really loved our conversation today.
Kristi Acee
Thank you for having us.
Cyndie Roche
It's been wonderful. They get to know you all a little better and I truly look forward to just continuing the relationships which is so much of what situations like this are about. So thank you, Simpson, Annie, and Kristi and Melissa.
Melissa McGhee
Yeah, for Annie to bring us all together. I agree, Cyndie. I can't wait to spend a lot more time with you guys, right? Because I think we could talk for another four hours, probably.
Kristi Acee
We totally could. We might need some wine.
Melissa McGhee
But I really have to thank Tina and Simpson for coming up with this idea and putting this together. This is just, you know, something that doesn't come around often. So to be able to sit and all the stuff I take away from it, right, is really meaningful. So I appreciate everybody's time.
Kristi Acee
Wasn't it therapeutic just even putting this together with everybody? And I mean, the conversations we had beforehand and during and I'm sure after, I mean, I love these conversations and I hope that others will be able to take this away and it will continue and pay forward for people. So thank you.
Annie Kao
I do too.
Cyndie Roche
You know, if I can leave you with one thought that came to mind, I think it's Brene Brown that says it, but it's so true and resonates so much that it's not about fitting in. It's about finding a place where you belong. And there's a big difference between fitting in somewhere and changing yourself to make it work or really sitting down feeling comfortable and knowing that you're with who you should you could learn from and grow with. And I feel like that's a lot of what situations like this do is they give us a sense to be who we are and feel like we belong and share in ways we don't always get an opportunity to do that.